Pathways to Publication: Interview with Marcia Thornton Jones

Have a manuscript you think might be worthy of publication and not sure what to do next? Maybe you're wondering if you need an agent and how to go about finding one. Or you're confused about what kind of money is involved--does someone pay YOU or do you have to sink some of your own savings into this venture? What does an editor do? Will you have to market this book yourself?

Last month I wrote about my own first feeble attempt at publishing a book. Now I'm interviewing other writers on their SUCCESSFUL pathways to publication--from self-published to traditional, debut writers to a writer who's published 130 books, and everything in between. 

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Marcia Thornton Jones, author/co-author of 130 books for children, on the phenomenal growth and change in the children's book publishing industry over the past twenty five years.


Jody: You wrote a book that you felt was worthy of publication, what were your next steps?

Marcia: Researching was important when I first started publishing. Targeting publishers, writing query letters and proposals, formatting manuscript: all that was new to me. I did everything I could to learn more. I went to conferences, started a critique group, read books and magazines, and joined SCBWI. For each manuscript I kept a list of possible publishers. Then I submitted, exclusively. I tried to be good and follow the rules. Really I did.

But it’s interesting to note that my first book, Vampires Don't Wear Polka Dots was sent unsolicited to a publisher that at the time did not accept unsolicited manuscripts. And they bought it.

Jody: How long did it take from finished book to publication? Any setbacks along the way?

Marcia: That first book took about 18 months from acceptance to published book. No setbacks. If there were any wrinkles I wouldn’t have stumbled over them because I was floating on cloud nine the entire time.

Jody: You didn't mention signing with an agent. You snagged the book deal and negotiated the contract on your own?

Marcia: I do have an agent. Now. I didn’t for a long time, though. In fact, most of my books I published before getting an agent.

For a long time I continued teaching full time while writing books—sometimes as many as 12 in one year. There came a time when I got another multi-book contract and I decided it might be time to ask an agent to step in and help relieve some of the marketing and negotiating duties.

I used multiple resources to locate reputable agents of children’s books, but the most important to me were word-of-mouth recommendations by other writers and a couple of my editors.

Basically, I want my agent to be a first reader to my book: to assess if it has market potential or to determine if it needs more work. Once my manuscript is ready, I expect my agent to target my book to the most appropriate publishers and editors. In other words, find the perfect person to buy my book. Finally, I want my agent to negotiate the best possible terms for contracts.

Jody: You've been doing this for a long time...

Marcia: It makes me feel old to admit it, but yes. A long time. My first book will be celebrating it’s 25th anniversary soon! Things have changed since then. A lot!

I’ve published 130 books; all of them traditionally. Terms varied depending on the book, the series, and the publisher. Individual contracts were negotiated with different advances and royalty terms. (An advance is an advance on the royalties--money paid up front before the book hits the market, which means no more money is paid until the book sales earn off that advance.)

Jody: Tell me a little about what happens after a deal is signed. Did you have to do any revisions?

Marcia: I’ve had to edit/revise all of my books except one. Some books required minor editorial tweaking. Others required major rewrites. Every editor I worked with has been respectful of my writing, yet frank about changes that need to be made. Most suggestions I had no problem with since I figure editors have knowledge and insight to what is good and what sells. Only a few suggestions did I either compromise on or outright refuse.

Jody: We haven't talked about the marketing aspect yet. I'm guessing you've done a lot to promote your books.

Marcia: Oh yeah. I’ve done cross-country tours, book signings, radio and television interviews, school visits, and <a-hem> blog interviews. I enjoy all of it, but the problem with author marketing is that as an individual writer I’m limited to how many readers I can actually reach.

Jody: What do you mean?

Marcia: One way traditional publishers benefit the writer and the book is that they have direct market access to stores, schools, and readers. Where I might be able to contact a handful of stores, the traditional publisher markets to the entire nation. It makes a huge difference in sales when a traditional publisher gets behind a book and promotes it. Especially now that there are more books than ever.

I have friends that have e-published, and they spend a lot of time and money trying to get their books noticed. Emphasis on ‘a lot’. There are two problems with that. First, time spent marketing is time away from writing. There needs to be a better balance than what I’m seeing.

The second problem is money. Investing chunks of money up front and spending more than you make borders on vanity publishing--which is fine if your primary objective is to have the opportunity to be read. But if writing is your primary source of income then it only makes sense to consider the concept of the return on the investment.

The bottom line: getting your book noticed is a major issue, and right now traditional publishers still have the loudest voice when it comes to getting the word out.

Jody: Do you see other benefits to working with a traditional publisher?

Marcia: Well, I mentioned before about revisions. With a traditional publisher you know your book is going to go through editorial revisions and copy-editing before it reaches the public. That means, bluntly, that it’s gone through a process to ensure a professional quality level. I know there are some really good self-published books out there, but buyers/readers also have to be aware that if anyone can throw a book up to the cloud, chances are you might be buying books that could’ve benefited from going through editorial vetting.

Jody: Some of these writers hire editors.

Marcia: That's true. And necessary. It also costs you, the writer, money up front. I’ve heard of people making a million by e-publishing. Sounds really really tempting. But it’s rather like buying that winning lottery ticket. Most of us probably aren’t going to win the lottery, just like most of us probably aren’t going to make a million by self-publishing. That’s why signing a traditional contract that includes an advance is nice.

Jody: As someone who has been in this business for twenty-five years, any thoughts on the future of publishing or what's going in the industry, as far as mergers, e-books, bookstore closings, etc., go? Do you see any of these issues as affecting you now, or in the future?

Marcia: More and more people are e-publishing. Publishers are tiptoeing into that format. My agency now has a person dedicated to e-book publication. All while selling a book to traditional publishers is harder than ever.

Yes, times are changing.

I’ve been very fortunate with traditional publishing, and today, right now, I still believe traditional publishing makes the best business sense while providing more growth opportunity for writers willing to hone craft based on editorial insight.

But I’ll be frank. I have several books that my agent once-upon-a-time thought were marketable and yet they haven’t sold. Do I shove them in a drawer and chalk them up to experience? And within the last year, several of my books have gone out of print. Should I file the reversion-of-rights letters and forget about them?

Since all these books have been vetted for quality and have gone through editorial revisions I feel confident that they’re ‘good enough’ for publication so, yeah, I will e-publish some of them. Better to have tried than not, right? But what I would like to see is a process by which e-books are vetted for quality, along with time and cost-effective ways to help writers market their work.

Jody: But you're not giving up on traditional publishing?

Marcia: No. I still hope for traditional publisher contracts. But in the meantime…if you know of anyone looking to hire a slightly used children’s book writer…

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Marcia Thornton Jones is a former elementary school teacher and the author or co-author of 130 books for children, including the beloved Adventures of the Bailey School Kids series, Ratfink, and Champ. 

You can find out more about Marcia on her website www.marciatjones.com  

Interview with Marcia Thornton Jones

As promised I have picked the creative brain of an author friend and will now share my findings with my faithful blog readers. Today, I’d like to introduce you to Marcia Thornton Jones, author of 132 (!!!) books for children, including the beloved ADVENTURES OF THE BAILEY SCHOOL KIDS series, co-authored with Debbie Dadey; the star-reviewed RATFINK; and CHAMP, the winner of the Maud Hart Lovelace Book Award. Fun fact: I’ve known Marcia for years because she used to be my boss in the Gifted/Talented department of Fayette County Public Schools in Lexington, Kentucky. Also we were in a book club together.

Marcia: Wait. Boss? That wasn’t in my job description, was it? I thought you were my boss…I was there to provide support for you! I’ve NEVER been called a boss before! Let me sit here and sort of enjoy that for a moment….

Okay…That’s over…

Jody: Marcia, you’re cracking me up. Here’s something weird you may not know: I didn’t know you were a writer until one day I happened to see a picture of you in the newspaper above the headline: “The Best Selling Author in Kentucky.”

Marcia: Really? How funny. That reminds me of a story. I was a gifted/talented teacher working on a literature project with fourth-graders. One of the students started writing a story that sounded very much like a Bailey School Kids story. I mentioned the similarities and she started talking about how they were her favorite books. On and on she went, and I figured she was putting it on pretty thick for brownie points. But, no! The student had no idea that her teacher was the writer of those books! The look on her face was unforgettable when another student clued her in.

I’ve had the same things happen with teachers who had no idea I was the author of the books they used with their students. One teacher, when being told I was the author, looked me in the face and said, “No, you’re not.” Then walked away. (Later she apologized. She thought I had been joking).

Jody: So Marcia, apparently you like to keep your success on the down low! But I could understand why after that day I kept you company at the Kentucky Book Fair, and you were mobbed by third grade fans clutching their favorite Bailey School Kids books.

Marcia: Actually, it was something that rarely came up. Teachers and students are pretty focused on sticking to their own curricula. Plus, I didn’t want anyone to feel this was some kind of conflict of interest.

Jody: You might remember that at the time I had a third grader myself who was a rabid reader of the series. One of the highlights of my daughter’s life was coming with me to my book club and sitting next to MARCIA THORNTON JONES. (Marcia, you were extremely gracious and patient with my daughter’s questions. As you are being now, in this interview!)

Marcia: Your daughter is an amazing girl with so many life highlights. It’s a highlight for me to know both your kids!

Jody: Thanks! So my first question is probably something you get all the time: where do your get our ideas? Corollary to this: what’s the back-story behind BAILEY SCHOOL KIDS?

Marcia: I love how the creative mind works. It never ceases to amaze me! Each book I write has a unique origin. VAMPIRE’S DON’T WEAR POLKA DOTS was based on a bad day I had with my students. I told the school librarian, Debbie Dadey, that I needed to grow ten-feet tall, sprout horns, and blow smoke out my nose just to get their attention. Being frustrated teachers, we thought that sounded like a great idea so, for a joke, we sat down and started writing that story. From that one ‘bad day’, we eventually developed a series based on the idea of ‘unusual’ adults in the fictional town of Bailey City called, “The Adventures of The Bailey School Kids.”

Some of my books, like CHAMP and RATFINK, are products of journaling freewrites. Both of those books started with a what-if situation. What if there was a kid that, more than anything, wanted to please his dad but ends up doing something that resulted in a horrible accident? What if there was a kid who has a secret that the school ‘bully’ finds out?

Other ideas have come from family history, my pets, fan letters and brainstorming with kids during school visits. The book I’m working on now grew out of a very vivid dream I had. I woke up and was telling my husband about it. He said, “You should use that in a book.”

To be honest, though, most ideas come from sitting down, putting my fingers on the keyboard, and just letting them flow. I usually end my writing day with the thought, “Where did THAT come from?”

Jody: Speaking of BSK, you’ve written a ton of these books with your friend Debbie, which makes me wonder how the writing process works when you’re co-authoring. A friend and I tried to write a novel together and it sort of fizzled it out in the middle and we both lost interest. Did this ever happen to you and Debbie? What are the challenges to writing with a partner? And were there challenges when you switched to writing books on your own?

Marcia: Debbie and I figured out this whole business of writing together. I think that made a huge difference. When we first started we sat side-by-side and basically ‘told’ the story; typing it in as we ‘spoke’ the character parts. That fast back-and-forth led to very natural dialogue and plot-driven stories.

After Debbie and her family moved from Lexington we had to develop a new system. We call it the hot-potato style of writing. Everyone knows that if you get caught with the hot potato you lose. Well, our manuscript becomes the hot potato to us. When working together we develop a loose outline and then take turns writing a couple chapters at a time with the understanding that we are free to make any changes in what the other person has written. We pass it back and forth via e-mail. Knowing that the other writer is waiting for it keeps us motivated and disciplined. This ‘hot potato’ method of writing with someone is both a benefit and a challenge. A benefit because it keeps me disciplined. A challenge because I have to put everything else on the back burner, especially since Debbie is a very fast writer!

Many people think that since we’ve been so successful as a team that we must have similar writing styles. We’re actually very different writers, but together we formed a third writing style and voice.

When I work independently, my process is much slower because I delve more deeply into character development and theme. Writing, to me, is like sculpting. First I start with a big chunk of raw material; those vague ideas, characters, images, and snippets of words. Then I begin to add more to shape its form and provide support through structure. Usually I do too much and have to shave off pieces or lop off big chunks. Sometimes I have to mush it all together and start over from scratch because it ‘just isn’t right’.

The entire time I’m focused on molding the raw material, supported with a stable structure, into something both meaningful and aesthetic. I’m also thinking of the intended readers. I want them to feel a connection to the character and an understanding of the character’s predicaments. Above all, I want them to have fun--to enjoy spending time in the world of my characters!

Jody: I love that sculpting idea. Lately I’ve been thinking of writing as digging up a fossil, but your metaphor shows that the writer has a little more control. Not that I feel that way about the process all the time…. Something I always wonder about successful writers is the up and down stuff that happens on the way to success. Like, I’ve heard stories of JK Rowling getting a bunch of rejections before hitting it big with Harry Potter, and every writer I know has at least one forever-to-be-unpublished novel hidden in a drawer somewhere. Did BSK rack up any rejections before Scholastic snapped it up? Do you have a book or two that has never sold? Any advice for us “pre”-published writers out here who are still plugging away?

Marcia: I have enough rejections to wallpaper my walls. BSK was sold to the third publisher, and we collected quite a collection on other stories before selling VAMPIRES.

I continue to be a ‘collector’ of rejections (can they be sold on e-bay?). I have no secret words of wisdom other than to develop a thick-skin, always have chocolate on hand, and to remember that there is power in persistence. I live by the motto that the only true failure is to never try at all. With that in mind, I view my hefty pile of rejection letters as a symbol of my success because each letter means I did what so many people only talk about doing--I completed a story and sent it out into the world.

Jody: So true. That's what we have to hold onto. But those rejections... Bleh! I know you write full-time now, but you’ve had a “day job” in the past (teaching, and when you were my awesome boss!) and you have lots of speaking engagements/school visits taking up your time, so how do you balance out your writing with your other commitments?

Marcia: Balance, discipline, and confidence are three things I constantly struggle with. Sometimes I do pretty well. Other times, well, other times I do really well at napping, reading, and watching TV!

Something that works for me is to set goals. By setting goals, I mean I write them down, review them everyday, and then check them off. That helps keep me focused.

The number one best piece of advice I have comes from Jeff Davis in his book THE JOURNEY FROM THE CENTER TO THE PAGE. Davis challenges writers to make writing appointments…and keep them. “If you keep appointments with your hairstylist or with that friend who hounds you to have lunch each Wednesday, then why not keep regular weekly, if not daily, appointments with your muse? (She’s probably more fun and less gossipy. Maybe)” (page 16)

Davis’s whole idea of giving your time ‘shape’ led me back to doing what I did as a teacher. Like most teachers, I completed weekly lesson plans. I always started by putting in the non-negotiables (like recess and lunch J ). Then I blocked in times for specific lessons. By doing this, time had a definite shape. There was that big block for math and one for reading and music and art, etc..

Now I do the same thing for writing. I give my time shape by starting with a weekly blank schedule and then blocking in the non-negotiables (like appointments and family responsibilities). After that, I start filling in exactly when and how I’m going to complete my stated writing goals. I do all this in a Word document, and I use different colors to highlight categories of activities. By the end of the week, I have a visual that shows definite shape to how I spent all my time. I always strive to have more ‘writing shapes’ then anything else.

I don’t always do this, though if I did I would be much more productive. I definitely fall back to ‘shaping my time’ when I find myself drifting away from writing for whatever reason.

Jody: Love these ideas and will definitely need to check out Davis’s book. I’m always searching for ways to be more productive! Okay, lastly, you and I both know the publishing industry is changing—with e-books and publishers expecting more from their authors in terms of promotion and use of social media. What’s your take on that?

Marcia: The publishing world is changing so fast that I think everyone is scrambling for a foothold. One thing that worries me is how easy it is for people to self-publish in the e-world. Reader beware on this one since self-publishing makes it more and more difficult to find quality literature. Many people (both readers and writers) don’t truly understand the value of the editing process. That’s when many mediocre stories are made to shine.

Another problem that needs to be addressed is ethical publishing practices. There needs to be a system in place that protects writers and readers from various forms of piracy.

However, I can see where e-publishing is tempting considering legendary publishers can take years to publish a book; or even years to reject a book. That’s pretty hard, as a writer trying to make a living, to accept. So I think the process of legendary publishing will need to adapt in order to compete.

I understand that using social media can be beneficial. I have a Web site; I’m on Facebook, but let me be honest. I write for kids. I really don’t think social media reaches my audience, and it shouldn’t, should it? I feel very uncomfortable when an elementary-aged student contacts me using social media, and for liability purposes, I do not engage in online conversations with them.

I truly enjoy traveling to schools, bookstores, and conferences to sign books and to speak about writing in workshops and teacher professional development sessions. But I have to be honest, those types of promotional tours are GREAT for getting reader and writing conversations, but they don’t usually result in sales spikes. The ones I see that can truly make a difference in the sales of traditionally published books are the publishers. They’re big enough to reach readers all over the world, especially young readers.

Not to say it can’t happen. I would love for some of my writing to ‘go viral’. If you can make that happen, please do! But in reality, the chances of that are similar to my chances of winning a mega-lottery. Yeah, It could happen…

I’ve also known writers who do a tremendous amount of promotions. They spend hours of their time on it. While few have seen a difference in their sales numbers (unless their work has been offered as a free e-book or at a very low rate), they HAVE commented that they’ve spent so much time on their promotions that they haven’t had a chance to, um, actually write anything.

I think it all goes back to your question on balance and purpose. I’m a writer, and I’m trying to be the best writer I can be. I know part of that is to connect with my young readers, and the best way for me to do that right now is through personal interactions during school visits, conference appearances, workshops and signings. That…and by sitting in front of my computer, putting my fingers on the keyboard, and letting the words flow!

Which reminds me...I left one of my characters locked in a room after being kidnapped by goons while visiting the grave of her mother...I better go figure out a way to get her out of there!

Jody: Uh oh, Marcia, then I'll let you get back to work! Thanks so much for talking with me. You were a great first interview specimen and I know my blog readers learned a lot!